How Strategic Talent Sourcing Works at Scale with Jessica Joseph & Brian Heger

[00:00:00] Brian : So hey, everyone, and welcome totoday's episode of the Talent Draup podcast. I'm Brian Hager, and I'm today'sguest host. I'm also the founder of the Talent Edge weekly newsletter. It's anewsletter that goes out to HR, talent, and business leaders who are interestedin the future of work. And I'm really excited for today's discussion on a topicthat is really critical to many of us and top of mind, and that's the area ofstrategic talent sourcing in the era of cost ops optimization.

And joining me today are two fantastic guests. We have VijaySwaminathan, co-founder and CEO of Draup, and Jessica Joseph, director ofstrategic talent sourcing at Aramark. Vijay and Jessica, great to have you bothhere joining.

[00:00:45] Vijay: Thank you.

[00:00:46] Jessica: Thanks for having us.

[00:00:48] Brian : Yeah. So I'd love to... Before we jumpinto the conversation, I'd love to give each of you just a brief moment tointroduce yourselves, tell us a little bit about your role and what you focuson, and then we'll jump into the discussion.

So Vijay, I'll start with you, and then once you're done, whydon't you hand it over to Jessica so she can do her intro? [00:01:05]

[00:01:05] Vijay: Sure. Um, thanks, Brian. Thanks, uh,Jessica. We call her JJ.Super privileged to be here. My name is Vijay Swami. Iam, uh, co-founder and CEO of Draup. Um, Draup has been focused on, uh, talentintelligence and, uh, work redesign aspects for the last, uh, seven-plus years.

Uh, really privileged to be here, Brian. I'm a big follower of,uh, your, uh, um, y- you know, writings and postings and newsletters. Uh, uh,and JJ, uh, you know I'm a big fan of your leadership and, uh, how you use datain a practical way. Um, so really excited about this next, uh, 20 or 30minutes.

[00:01:47] Brian : Great. Thanks, Vijay.

[00:01:49] Jessica: Thanks. Um, hi, my name is JessicaJoseph. Uh, as Vijay said, you can call me JJ, and I lead our talent sourcing,uh, organization for the Unit- for the US at Aramark. Um, uh, and reallyexcited to be here today. Um, in my role at Aramark, I really focus on, [00:02:10] um, uh, building a strategic sourcingfunction, um, and transforming that, um, the function that we have today tocontinue to be, um, uh, more future ready, um, one that looks, um, a- at theenterprise and really cross line of business.

We have 10 diverse, uh, lines of businesses at Aramark that weserve, um, and really understanding how we can, um, understand, um, the demandbetter, continue to, um, im- improve on having, you know, ready now pipelines,uh, for the business, especially in a business that, um, talent, you know,really makes or breaks, um, uh, whether we, uh, remain at our accounts and, andour relationships with our clients.

So it's really important that we have the right talent on theground. Uh, so excited that I get to do that for a company like Aramark that'sbeen around for 90 years.

[00:03:08] Brian : Thanks so much, Jessica. You do allthe fun stuff, right? Yeah. That's all the, the, the fun stuff. Well, thanks somuch for that introduction, Jessica [00:03:15]and, and Vijay.

And why don't we just jump into a real practical discussionaround this topic of strategic sourcing, especially in an era of costoptimization. And, and Vijay and JJ, you, you know this. We see a lot ofdifferent talent reports that come out with CEOs and the C-suite and businessleaders, what are their top priorities, what are they focused on.

And invariably, no matter what report you look at, as you startdigging through that, it's no surprise that leaders are concerned that are webeing intentional and proactive about having the talent-

[00:03:48] Vijay: Mm-hmm ...

[00:03:48] Brian : that we need? And what's making thateven more important is all the changes happening that we all know very well inthe workplace.

And then how do we keep cost optimization in mind, which isoften a delicate balance. So given that context, where I wanna start, and Ithink I'll start with you, JJ, given the role that you have. I wanna start morewith frontline type roles, and those frontline roles are typically they're highvolume roles, they have a lot of local constraints, highly [00:04:20] sensitive to timing and things like that,which makes it tough to anticipate what's going to happen and, and so on.

So love to hear, given your role and what you and your team do,how do you do talent sourcing i-in this type of environment? 'Cause there's acouple of challenges that you face. And then a second part of that question is:How are you using talent intelligence to overcome those challenges? And notonly overcome them, but to use that as a strategic differentiator for you

[00:04:52] Jessica: Yeah.

Yeah, great question. Um, and, and it definitely is achallenge. Um, our, you know, frontline hiring, like you said, it's, it's verymuch focused on, um, or dependent on the location, um, and timing. And evenwhen you're fully staffed, um, that could change tomorrow. And when it doeschange and you're reacting to that, it's really already too late.

So it's really important that, um, we shift, and, and somethingwe're trying to, uh, continue to shift the mindset in, uh, at Aramark, and, andprior to [00:05:25] this I was with Walmart,um, and, and we're doing the same. And I think this is a challenge for allcompanies that have frontline hiring, is how do we, um, move from a reactivestate to a proactive state?

Um, how do we, um, shift from just filling the requisition toanticipating those shortages and having that talent ready to go? Um, and so weuse talent intelligence to really help, um, understand those market signals,um, and then we could spot those areas of stress early. Um, and so when we dothat, we can have our pipelines ready, um, and that helps us really reducethose fire drills, um, all of that wasted work, um, that happens when you arereacting.

Um, and so it's really important that you understand thoseexternal signals, those market signals, um, so that, um, even before yourhiring numbers move. Um, and like some examples of that would be, you know, uh,whether local labor supply is tightening, um, commuting [00:06:30] patterns change. Um, obviously there's, there's largersignals, um, you know, around the economy, but there's a lot of small localones that are really important that, um, you're outpacing, um, uh, yourintelligence is outpacing that, um, those supply changes and those marketshifts.

[00:06:49] Brian : And JJ, what's been the reaction fromthe team since you've been making that pivot?

[00:06:55] Jessica: So it's been, um, it's beeninteresting. I mean, uh, obviously, uh, um, it, it's a very large organization,and sometimes it, it takes time for those, um, changes to come to fruition,right? When you're planning for the future, it's not, um, uh, so much about theactivity that people are used to seeing and feeling good about, right?

Um, when you're in recruitment, um, recruitment's very muchabout filling roles, right? So this, this is a little different. Um, but thereaction has been really positive, um, especially when folks start to see thechange. When, um, you know, we have an account, [00:07:35]um, you know, we win a new account or, um, or we have, you know, someone reallyfabulous move on to, um, you know, a, a promotion and having, you know,external folks ready to go in addition to our internal folks.

Um, and then we have that l- slate ready, and they can make adecision really quickly, an informed decision, decision because they have theslate ready. So once they start to see that, the feeling, um, uh, of, you know,activity changes, um, and, uh, the way they see TA as a whole has changed. Um,and so it's been a really great reaction so far, and we're excited to justcontinue to scale it, um, so that we can make sure that every, you know, lineof business in our company is feeling that.

[00:08:19] Brian : That's great. I, I, I love that. Ialways love practical examples for the people that are actually doing the work'cause you have to face the, the, the hiring managers, the business leaders whoare really wanting to bring the talent in, so that's a great example. And theone thing I'll add before I hand it over to Vijay to see if he has anything hewants to expand on from that perspective [00:08:40]is you're right, this doesn't happen overnight, but I'm big on are we makingprogress in the right area, and what are those little mini indicators thatsuggest, wow, we're better off now than what we were three months ago?

So it sounds like you're on that, that path. So, so JJ, thanksso much for, for sharing that. Vijay, do you want to add anything to whatJessica shared? Because you, you deal with so many organizations and you see alot, so anything you wanna share with us?

[00:09:07] Vijay: Right. Uh, I, I, I was, um... The powerof, uh, frontline labor and the impact it has on organization is, uh,substantial, right?

So, uh, recently, uh, one of my flights got canceled and, uh,uh, as it was coming out, uh, even though we know there is an app, there is ahotline, whatever that we can call, 90% of the people who walked out of thatflight really sort of, uh, crowded around the agent who's sitting outside theaircraft, right? So our first intuition when it [00:09:45]comes to frontline work is to use humans.

A time of crisis, that's where frontline work, uh, whether itis a nursing staff, whether it is truck driver, whether it is food service,right? So, uh, J- JJ knows that very well in our-- Um, we actually trust humansmore than machines, and it's gonna take some time, um, for us to get out ofthat. Like even in that airport example, uh, when people saw, uh, okay, oneagent can't do anything, this many people, that's when they kind of say,"Okay, let me fire up my computer and, uh, uh, see how I can do differently,"right?

Uh, our first instinct, uh, in a healthcare setup or in a foodservice setup, we trust humans more. Um, a- and thereby it is, uh, going to behuman intensive, labor intensive in the short run. Now The challenge that, um,leaders like JJ face is the, the frontline workforce is getting used to higher [00:10:50] quality of digital tools on their personallives.

Like, uh, they, they are using most modern, uh, uh, you know,gadgets, phones, uh, devices, et cetera. Um, so they expect a certain amount ofautomation in their work to carry forward. Now, this is where the digital andAI investment in the frontline actually becomes a necessity because, um, they,they are, uh... I, I mean, uh, if you are, uh, uh, serving a pharmacy and ifyou do not have a proper kiosk to triage, like, the, the frontline pharmacistsare wondering, "Why don't I have that?"

Right? Like, so why do I still have an outdated POS system,right? So, uh, that's how the corporate, uh, digital, uh, trans-transformationpressure are coming in because that becomes, uh, what do they do if you don'troll out? They basically pick an organization that has more modern systems.Like to, uh, when the labor is so, uh, thin in terms of availability, they goand pick, "Hey, you know, I always like working in this company [00:11:55] because they have modern systems.

I don't have to, uh, go through the, uh, process that I gothrough here." So it becomes very, very important, right? So, uh, thatdynamic we see playing out. The third one, what JJ said is, uh, absolutelyright. The, uh, frontline work is hyperlocal It's even, uh, county specific orif the county is big even it's like, uh, minor, uh, constituency specificbecause, uh, it depends on the economical strata of, uh, uh, the labor forcethat you are tapping into.

Uh, what is easy for, uh, a corporate job may not be... Like itmay be okay for a FNA analyst to drive 40 miles to downtown, live in thesuburb. Um, your accessibility radius is a bit high in a big, in, uh, cities.Uh, but frontline you don't have that, right? So, uh, uh, you, you may be--people may be wanting to not travel more than, uh, um, certain distances [00:13:00] or they, they will depend on bus routes,right?

So do I have public transport, uh, that can get me there? Sothere is just lots of signals that needs to be processed when it comes tofrontline is what, uh, uh, I'm learning as well, Brian, so.

[00:13:14] Brian : I love that, Vijay. You know, it's soimportant what you, you said because those signals, right? The more signalsthat we get, it's almost like filling in a piece of, piece of a puzzle.

Like this piece of the signal might tell this part of thepicture, and when you start bringing the whole piece together, even if it's apartial piece, we could take a lot of the guesswork out of it or minimize theguesswork and make data-driven types of decisions. And lastly, I love what yousaid about the, the, the frontline.

I, I always say, you know, it's also important to know what ourcritical roles are surrounding the business strategy. And a lot of times wethink critical roles are at the top of the organizational hierarchy, and weknow that that's not the case. It's all dependent- Right ... on your strategy,and you gave a great example of, of that, Vijay, with the, the frontline workerexample that you mentioned.

So [00:14:05] thank you- Yeah... so much for sharing that, Vijay. I wanted to shift into a, a, a secondrelated topic. We, we talked about cost optimization, right? Because when wetalked about those priorities that business leaders mentioned, yes, they wantthe talent. We want to prepare for the, uh, future of work, not only thefuture, but for today as well.

But we also wanna optimize our costs. We talk a lot aboutefficiency and sourcing, uh, you know, productivity and ROI. And Jessica, I'llgo back to you on this particular question here How do you go about balancingout the desire for cost optimization and efficiency, and making sure that we'remaking the right and good decisions?

Because sometimes if we move too fast, we might not make thebest decision, and other times if we are waiting for the perfect decision, wenever take action, so nothing gets done, and then the, the business starts to,to suffer. So any practical examples of how you're approaching it [00:15:10] and, and you and your team-

[00:15:11] Jessica: Yeah

[00:15:11] Brian : with your organization?

[00:15:13] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and speed, um,cost comes up a lot. Um, you know, when we have a vacant role open, I mean,we're in the business of hospitality, um, and when we have a vacant role open,that could really impact, um, uh, impact that, uh, that business. And so it'sreally important that, um, we're always looking at that.

And something that we need to, um, you know, uh, focus on, uh,you know, in these, in the- in this world is really understanding how we canreduce spend, not just today, but in the long term. Um, and also that, um, abad hire is definitely more expensive than a vacant role for the right person.Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think, uh, when you are insourcing something that, um, wecan do is take a role that where we can unders- put a cost to it, you know, [00:16:15] when there is, um, um, the wrong hire, andwhat that churn actually costs.

Um, and when we do that, um, I think we can come at it in adata-informed way where we can go to the business and say, "We understandthis needs to be filled quickly, um, and here's our plan to do that. Um, let'sget ahead of, you know, the churn where we can, um, and make sure that weplan." Um, because that speed cost, um, you know, uh, it comes with Thereduced cost comes with preparation, not necessarily those like shortcuts thatwe're constantly taking just to fill things quickly.

And so I think those, those two really go hand in hand. Um, andit's important that, um, we really help the business understand, um, that whatwe are doing and what we're preparing for will cost less in the long run. Um,and so the goal ultimately is that we are always staffed, um, and keeping thatsustainable.

[00:17:20] Um, and so when weunderstand that true kind of like North Star, that helps us and helps thebusiness understand that we need, um, to build that sustainable plan so that wecan get there and continuing to, you know, go after what's right in front of usso that we can have a body, um, you know, in, in the seat or on the ground onthe front line, um, can really hurt our business, uh, because we are in the,the business of hospitality, uh, especially.

Um, and so that's something that we always, you know, have to,have to remind.

[00:17:53] Brian : That's a great, great practicalexample Great. Yeah And, and just before I go back to Vijay to see what hewants to add, just a reaction to what you just said, JJ. And I, I love what yousaid. You know, business leaders and managers, they understand theoreticallythe importance of workforce planning and all the stuff that we're trying to do.

But it's amazing how-- One, one of the reasons I think itdoesn't advance much is because it gets attention, and then when things getokay, we deprioritize it. And I love what you said. I [00:18:25]always love going to the business leaders or the business, and rather thanstarting with the, the technology or the process or the, the program, what isthe business problem or opportunity that we're trying to solve for?

And using real data to say, "Hey, here's why we think thisis worth solving," and then come up with a solution, which could be atalent intelligence solution. And I also like adding at the end, "If wedon't move on this, that's a decision we can make. However, here's the cost ofinaction, and are we okay with this and what it means for the business?"

I think that kind of conversation gets some different outcomes,and it sounds like you're doing that by always starting with, "Hey, here'swhat we're trying to drive from a business perspective, and here's how we coulddo this through talent intelligence and strategic sourcing." So, so thanksso much for sharing that.

Vijay, I know this is a topic that you get a lot of questionson with, especially with the, uh, the, the clients and leaders that you, youwork with. So what are your thoughts on that topic of cost optimization and [00:19:30] trying to balance out the two that

[00:19:32] Vijay: we talked about? Right. Uh, I, I mean,absolutely, I think totally in alignment with what JJ said.

Um, I think, uh, um, for hospitality businesses or, uh, ingeneral, um, y- you know, food services type of industries, um, a wrong movecould, uh, significantly derail the business, uh, even if you look atStarbucks, right? So when they switch to mobile order, while it is atechnologically a fantastic innovation You actually eroded the f- the groundvalue of, uh, what Starbucks is all about, right?

Like, uh, Starbucks is all about that interaction, that smalltalk, and picking up from the humans. Um, yes, uh, uh, it solved the queuingtheory problem. As an industrial engineer, I am fascinated by what the digitalapp did. You don't have to talk to anybody. You can just... Your coffee will beready, and you go pick it up.

But what happened in the lo- after that in terms of, [00:20:35] uh, uh, customer trust, uh, experience,all that, uh, you know, it's all for everyone to see, right? So, um, while, uh,y- y... Brian, you made a great point. W- those are decisions that we make whenwe are on high. The business is doing great. Hey, and I need to add to the--add more, more, more, um Um, but rather, um, certain investments on digital,uh, y- you know, rather than remembering the recipes, we will auto-feed you inan AI-driven way at the point of ordering.

Those technologies are great because it's enablement. So mytheory has always been when it comes to frontline, first you, you have toaugment the human, then think about automating, right? Um, and if-- and it's abig, long cycle. Uh, because if you prematurely automate, uh, even though thatexperience is awesome from a metric standpoint, it may have a negative impacton your business, [00:21:40] right?

So those are the aspects that, uh, people are beginning tounderstand, uh, whether it is, uh, you know, retail store. Uh, and the otherthing I wanna also understand is, uh, uh, business for the last two, threedecades, we've been sort of, um, making the mistake that, um, frontline is sortof disposable, cheaper labor.

Other labor is not. Like, I think, uh, uh, the industry hassort of, um, you know, been, uh, uh... Uh, there is sort of a, a, a, anunstated opinion about frontline labor like that. That needs to change because,uh, I mean, uh, we've seen in, uh, uh, places like, uh, W- Walmart and otherwhere truck drivers, uh, have made beautiful careers.

Like they have been-- become multimillionaires. I've seen, uh,case studies, um, like that. So it is actually an area where, uh, l- uh, ingeneral, labor can make a lot of money and make, uh, careers. Like there are somany levels in frontline. That's number one. [00:22:45]I think that awareness doesn't exist. Uh, and as a result, and it is also a, anim- uh, uh, an element that significantly contributes to the bottom line.

So if we, um, if we understand that and if we startcommunicating to our frontline labor force that way, more people will come ininto frontline because some, uh... The truck driver is a great example. For along time, we thought, uh- truck driving will be automated and no need fortruck drivers, and suddenly the pool that came into that shrunk.

Uh, but we actually see that great truck drivers make, uh, uh,y- you know, ton of money. Uh, great store managers make ton of money. And, uh,uh, that part is not well understood for people who are making careerdecisions. As a result, uh, uh, if we can change that, more people will come inbecause there is, uh, uh, the desk jobs, there is a lot more AI threat there aswell.

So I think now is the time to reevaluate, uh, those frontlinejobs is sort of my thought there. If,

[00:23:46] Jessica: if I may say... Oh, sorry.

[00:23:48] Brian : No, go, go ahead, JJ.

[00:23:49] Jessica: [00:23:50]Uh, I completely agree with you, Vijay. And, um, this is something, you justhit on something I'm really passionate about. Um, uh, especially at Aramark,our frontline hourly folks, uh, have a very high, um, uh, promotion rate intoour, our salaried roles, right?

So when we think about- Got it ... the growth of folks, um, andwhen we think about recruit-- you know, from a business perspective, when wehire frontline, like, we're also hiring our potential future leaders, um, ofthe company, and getting them to understand how important that is on theground, that hospitality, and then bringing that, um, you know, those valuesthrough their, the leadership is extremely important.

Um, and I agree with you that I think companies, um, need to doa better job at really telling that story so that folks are really seeing, um,those frontline jobs a-as a, a career path, um, into, uh, into greateropportunities. So, um, and, and, you know, one more thing around, like, thetechnology and, and augmenting that, um, you [00:24:55]know, something that is really important that, you know, um, I instill in theteam, uh, in the sourcing team and, and greater TA team is that, um, we arebranding as well.

Every time we have a conversation with a candidate, that'sbranding, um, and building that brand. So, like, yes, they can read all about,you know, Aramark online and- Okay ... but when they are, um... You know, ourpersonal touch is really important. Um, and so, uh, when they're havingconversations with us and, and with the business, um, uh, that part cannot bereplaced.

And we have heard from multiple candidates that, um, you know,meeting the team is what sells them- Got it ... ultimately making the decision.So all of those things, including technology to, obviously, to enable to get toa mass, you know, amount of people. Um, but that personal touch, I think, isreally what- Okay

you know, uh, what gets them to choose us.

[00:25:49] Vijay: The-- No, that's, that's super, uh,insightful. Thank you for that. Yeah.

[00:25:54] Brian : Yeah. JJ, one final comment on thatbefore we move to our last topic, and I-- these conversations always go too,too [00:26:00] fast, especially when they'rereally interesting and practical, 'cause we can go all day on this.

Kiera, one reaction that you mentioned is I, I do think it's anuntapped opportunity, sharing the story to frontline workers about the careerpaths and sharing those, because it's one thing to say it and to put it inmaterials, recruiting materials, but it's different when they can actually seepeople that have moved their careers and whatever those careers are, and, andhearing those firsthand.

So I think the marketing of that and, and the sharing of thatand the promotion of that is really, really important. And, and Vijay, I likethe example that you gave before about how technology can enable, but in someenvironments, you, you know, that customer experience, especially withfrontline workers, is so important.

And the example that you gave, you know, the decision that wemake to optimize could cut out critical points of the customer- Absolutely ...experience and that interaction that builds, you know, loyalty over time andcoming back to the store or the, the location a- and so on. So I think that's agreat [00:27:05] example.

So again, I wanna pivot to our last topic, and, and JJ, I'mgonna start with you again on this one. I'm letting Vijay off the hook onthese. I gotta-- next time we're gonna go start with, with him here. But, uh,great conversation. And I wanna talk about, to wrap this up, if we're focusinga lot of time, energy, organizational resources, and investments on all of thiswith strategic talent sourcing and talent intelligence, it's really importantthat we look at what are the metrics that we're using to demonstrate that we'remaking progress and that there is an ROI?

And the environment may call for metrics that we used to usethat may be less relevant today or not tell as much of the story that we haveto shift, and maybe new metrics that we now have to capture. So do you have anythoughts or tactics that you're using on, on how do you decide on what metricsyou're using to articulate the narrative so that those business leaders that wetalked about at the very beginning in [00:28:10]sharing why we're doing this, we can come back to them and say, "Hey,here's how we're moving the needle on these things, and here are some of thosesignals and those early indicators"?

Any thoughts you can share on that?

[00:28:22] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. And this is aconstant conversation and, and also educational, and one that continues toevolve, um, e- even, you know, as I continue to, to learn more about thebusiness and what is really gonna matter. So, um, first thing, uh, time to fillI feel like is always a metric in talent acquisition that everyone talks about.

Um, but ultimately it's really looking backwards, right? It'snot really looking forward. It's, it's about kinda like reporting on what wedid. Um, and so as we think about that and as we, we, uh, look at metrics thatwe're continuing, uh, to build as we, you know, build the foundation of, of, ofmore pipelining, um, focus, uh, we're looking really about the pipeline health,right?

Pipeline health, you know, more than men- than the volume. Um,we're looking at what, how do we measure [00:29:15]readiness, um, versus activity? Um, understanding conversion quality, you know,um, that is, is really important. How many of those, uh, candidates areconverting to interviews and offers? That to me is more important than thevolume of candidates.

Um, and so, uh, and then the next thing, and we're Uh, in, insome, uh, functions we're, we're better at, um, you know, reporting thanothers, and I think that's, you know, probably across the board in, inenterprises. Um, but, you know, the time to productivity. Um, so a- are thecandidates that we are, um, uh, putting forward and are getting hired, are theybeing productive faster?

Like, those are things that I think the business really, um,cares about, um, and they're not used to hearing about. So we are trying to,you know, change the way we talk about these things so that, um, our metricsare truly more guiding the priorities so that we're more of a business partnerthan just reporting on, you know, what [00:30:20]we've done and our history.

[00:30:22] Brian : Yeah. I love that shift from activitymeasures to true progress measures, and the one thing you mentioned about timeto fill, I also think it's always important, no matter what metrics we decideare important, is clearly defining what we mean by that and understanding thedifferent touch points. Mm-hmm.

'Cause I remember a lot of-- We all been through this, time tofill. When does the clock really start? And, and what led to the time to fillthe lengthy increase? Was it that we didn't really know what the job requiredor what we wanted in a candidate? Was it that we just didn't plan effectivelyand know that the role was coming?

So it's not just a metric, it's about how do we make sure weclearly define it, but understand what are the things that influence it. Ithink that's really important, and it sounds like you're, you're, you're doingthat within your organization. A-a-and Vijay, I wanna shift over to you becausethis has to be a question that you get from a lot of companies and, andbusiness leaders.

Anything you wanna share with respect to metrics that we mightfocus less on when it comes to strategic talent sourcing and talentacquisition, [00:31:25] and others- Yeah ... wemight wanna focus more on?

[00:31:27] Vijay: I think, uh, what we are seeing is agradual but definite shift towards, uh, a role-based hiring to acapability-based hiring because, uh, companies are, um, especially from astrategic sourcing standpoint, right, like, uh, companies, uh, the leadershipis not very clear on what are all the roles I truly need for the future of workperspective.

So they're gonna have to say, "Hey, you know, maybe,"uh, I'm just completely making this up, uh, to relate to, uh, JJ's business.Maybe we need, let's say, some food samplers, right, uh, embedded in thecafeteria of Aramark. Let's say that's one of the futuristic need. There may betwo or three roles associated with that and, uh, uh, where we are truly going,um, i-in that direction as to how do I build that, uh, set of skills,capabilities.

There [00:32:30] may be four orfive roles, and start holding the objectives towards, uh, yes, I haveimplemented that capability for you. Uh, and, uh, if, uh, e-even if it is, uh,more aggressive, um, sensor-based or feedback-based data tracking, um, let'ssay as we finish eating, we are, uh, say, "Hey, the food was great,"like a green, yellow.

Let's say you are, uh, um, doing that, uh, data collection aspart of your, uh, service delivery, then you need to bring that capability. Sofor every experience that we are, uh, uh, seeking to implement, uh, we areseeing a trend towards, uh, uh, leaders themselves. Uh, we lived in a worldwhere leaders knew these are all the roles, go higher, but I think that's--there is a little bit of, uh, change coming there and, uh, um, beginning to seemore capability-based, uh, hiring coming into strategic sourcing especially,right?

So, uh, I'm very excited about that period, uh, when it, uh,uh, [00:33:35] fully becomes mainstream, so.

[00:33:36] Brian : That's a great point. Love that, lovethat shift from just looking at roles to more the broader capabilities 'causeit helps us, enables us to do a lot more with the strategic talent sourcing andthe planning and, and so on.

And I apologize for keeping the two of you over. I know I onlyasked you for, for 20 minutes on this, but this has been a great discussion.And before we, we sign off, um, JJ and Vijay, any final words for teams thatare looking to do some of what we talked about as far as taking that initialnext step? Uh, you know, part of what's behind my question, I always think thatif we wait until we have the perfect plan and everything figured out, we nevertake the action.

So I always like to say, what are one or two practical thingsthat people could start thinking about if they're looking to start mobilizingand getting more effective at this tr- uh, strategic talent sourcing? Is thereone, maybe two simple things that you would recommend that they do? And thisgoes out to either of you, and, and Vijay or JJ, you, you can start [00:34:40] first.

But, uh, I think that's a good question that will give peoplesome practical takeaways beyond what we shared already.

[00:34:47] Vijay: I'll let JJ weigh in because she's theleader here doing it, prac- practitioner.

[00:34:53] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and so I thinkthat two things you could do, um, first is, is truly talk to the business andreally understand their goals and think about, um, how can you, from a sourcingperspective, help achieve those, and then put together a plan.

The second piece to that, um, the layer on top is, isprioritizing, getting the right people in the room, especially in these diversebusinesses. Um, and I've seen this at Tax, I've seen this at Walmart and, andat Aramark. Every, you know, business leader has obviously different prioritieswithin their business that they care about.

How do we bring them all together, find the commonalities? Um,what is the, uh, you know, 80% common? And then take those roles and startthere. Mm-hmm. You know, start with one or two positions that you know are s- [00:35:45] very critical to the business, and how canyou improve the talent readiness of those roles? People are going to start tosee the value, and then you can scale.

Um, I think sometimes we look at it as a whole bigorganization, and it's just too much to see through, and there's so much noisearound it, um, that it's hard to really understand the truth. So I think if youcan really get down to that, um, really quickly, you will have a really greatstart to, you know, a, a more business-led sourcing function, um, and asopposed to recruiter-led sourcing function, which I think most sourcingfunctions, from what I understand, are, um, are at today and, and trying to evolveto.

[00:36:26] Brian : That's such a great tactic, and I likethat tip. I'm gonna have to take that one about finding that- Mm-hmm ... 80%where there's overlap, 'cause if you focus on that 80%, it helps to stamp outsome of that other noise that you mentioned. Yeah. And we can refine as we goand test and experiment. Yes.

[00:36:42] Jessica: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:42] Brian : Jay, do you wanna take us home withany final exclamation point on, on any practical one or two tips that you'drecommend beyond that?

[00:36:49] Vijay: [00:36:50]Uh, I think, uh, uh, i- it's the same tip that JJ recommended. I just want to,uh, y- you know, double down on that. Mobility, mobility, mobility, right?Like, so, uh, if we can, uh, educate the broader enterprise workforce that- Um,you can actually become a CEO by starting from frontline that there are so manyexamples of that across, uh, industries.

Um, I, I think that will energize the frontline labor and alsothe digital tools have sort of removed certain friction points that existed sayfive, six years a-ago. I, I think, uh, educating that, um, some communicatingsomehow that back to the workforce, uh, uh, y-you know, you're not gonna be onyour feet forever, like just because you are...

The term frontline doesn't mean you have to be, uh, standing atthe front of the line all the time, right? Like it just, uh, so this, um, thesecategories of, uh, labor that worked, helped in the industrial era is no longerhelping us, [00:37:55] uh, because we aretalking about even software engineers becoming frontline.

What that means is you really have to go sit with the customersand find out what their true problems are. You can't just sit in some isolatedremote area and then think that, uh, you know it all. Like, so every job issort of frontline, becoming frontline some ways. Uh, uh, and I think, uh, uh,if we can communicate that and the mobility point that JJ highlighted, I think,uh, that will lead to a very bright future from my perspective.

[00:38:26] Brian : Vijay, we're gonna end on that note,such a practical and enjoyable discussion, and I think you've both given thelisteners and the viewers some practical ideas that they can work with on this.So I really enjoyed this. I'm looking forward to doing this again. Wanna thankyou so much for joining, and also thank those who joined us to watch this orlisten to this, uh, on the Talent Drop podcast.

So thanks again, and we'll see you soon.

[00:38:51] Vijay: Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you somuch, JJ. Appreciate your time.

[00:38:54] Jessica: Thank you both so much. This wasgreat.

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